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 Re: Community Growth
 
 10/30/2006 6:00:13 AM
User is offlineKevinK
6 posts


Re: Community Growth
 (United States)
Help me understand the connection between increased community growth and classic marks of the church. It sounds like you are saying these compete. If so, how?
 10/30/2006 9:11:06 PM
User is offlineaphekah
16 posts


Re: Community Growth
 (United Kingdom)
I think the original question of the marks of the church had to do with questioning if we focus on community growth, will we necessarily have to give up some of the classic marks of the church - or in keeping those will we find community growth. In either case, it seems like community growth should be a sign of fruit on a healthy tree. The question at hand then seems to be: How do we become a healthy tree.

Grounding this in pneumatology is one way to do so, although certainly not the only way. Christology would certainly be another avenue, considering that the church is considered to be the body of Christ. Could we develop an understanding of the body, and growth within the body, by understanding Christ as the one who we are a part of. Here is a parallel that might be useful:
Think of the sower sowing the word - the word as we know is linked with Christ - who is the Word of God. So in our proclaiming, we are proclaiming Christ. The issue in the parable though has to do with the soil on which the Word falls. Maybe that is our parallel. This is what I mean. We focus a lot on preaching in the church, which is the equivalent to sowing the Word. But can we do justice to the body if we are only sowing, shouldn't we be focused (and equally so) on watering, tilling the ground, etc., so that the Word has a place to fall. Could we just be throwing seed on cement every Sunday?

From this, we will need to open up a discussion about the Spirit, and what kind of role the Spirit plays in the lives of the community as they till and water, etc. That could be an adequate parallel to what we should be doing as a church. What do you think?
 12/6/2007 3:16:27 AM
User is offlineRandy Wood
1 posts


Re: Community Growth
 (N/A)

Great thoughts! Here is my simple answer. The other day I was with my youngest son at a local park. As I sat their on the bench, taking in the beauty of nature and the surroundings, I noticed something. A play ground. As I looked around I began to notice something interesting. I noticed that there were people from various cultures. Their wer Haspanic people, Afracian Americans, a family from Germany, another family from france and some locals. What i noticed was even though we could not understand eachothers language, we all had something in common, the play ground. In that setting of true community, most of our bias thoughts and presuppositions were blurred by the commonality of the play ground. i thought "on the play ground we are all in the spirit of community." On the day of the feast of Pentecost, they were all together in one place and had a lot in common. So, as a christian community, maybe we need to create an inviroment like a play round so that most of our guards can be taken down as the Holy Spirit brings those that are "different" into our community.
 3/5/2008 2:57:40 PM
User is offlineDRMiller
1 posts


Re: Community Growth
 (United States)

To me what we know as classic Christianity has nothing to do with being the Church as established by Christ and the Apostles. All instances of Church life in the New Testament involve community not liturgy. (Check out Pagan Chrisitianity by Frank Viola and George Barna if you'd like to know more on the subject of church practices and where they came from). When you look at the Churches we have all been involved in throught the years can we really say in light of scripture and Jesus teachings, are we really doing what Jesus told us to do?
 3/6/2008 8:20:46 AM
User is offlinePastor Nar
16 posts


Re: Community Growth
 (United States)
I’m not sure if this post is a continuation from a previous one, but Kyle asked a couple questions: “What would it look like to have a community of people growing spiritually without giving up any of the classic Christian marks of a church?” and “Is there something fundamentally wrong with our model of church, or are we just missing an essential element to it?” - whereas the previous post mentioned the Viola/Barna book Pagan Christianity, noting concerns that “…what we know as classic Christianity has nothing to do with being the Church as established by Christ and the Apostles” and ended with “…are we really doing what Jesus told us to do?”

There is a vast array of issues that could be discussed when considering these questions and statements – and I’m not going to try to tackle them all, but I do have a couple thoughts that I’d like to share.
There is much that Jesus instructed us to do – yet they all have as a base (as did the Law and the Prophets) two elements: Love God and love people (Luke 10:25-28).

I am concerned with our fascination to find the perfect or divinely inspired ‘model’ of doing/being the church (because I’ve been guilty of it, too). The New Testament offers small glimpses of what transpired when God’s people gathered during the first century, but not a detailed layout of exactly what a church must look like or how it must express itself. Perhaps that was intentional on the Spirit’s part. Could not ‘the’ model that we are to base ourselves upon be to love God with everything we are and to love people as ourselves? If that’s the case, this would not only allow for infinite diversity in expression and formation in community, but would also allow the message of Jesus Christ to be faithfully displayed and proclaimed in any era and societal/cultural context.
If we utilize loving God and loving others as our model – which was perfectly expressed in Jesus Christ – it can lead a beautiful blend of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. We are free to explore how to most effectively communicate (by word and deed) the gospel of the Kingdom of God and his free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ. This allows room for biblical preaching and teaching, ritual and liturgy (“customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances”) – which we find examples of in both covenants … from the shema to the simple confession “Jesus is Lord”), examination of the church’s creedal statements and how our understandings of Christology, soteriology and ecclesiology have developed, and in this forum – spiritual formation. If we find that something is effectively communicating the truth and love of God, we are free to use it. If something is not (or no longer) effectively communicating the truth and love of God, we are free to lay it aside and find a way to do so.

There seems to be much romanticism regarding the ‘first church’ – as if it were perfect. It wasn’t. They had their own set of ‘growing pains’. They had times of glory and of shame. The early church was a body of believers in Jesus who were in formation – in ‘becoming’ … just as we are today.  If the church is a living organism at its core, it has the ability to adapt to its environment, to learn, to change, to grow – continually being transformed by the Spirit more and more into the image of Christ.

Personally, I’m not really interested (any longer) in re-living the Book of Acts or trying to be a ‘first century church’ anymore than I am in becoming an infant again (although I wouldn’t mind going back to being 25 years old knowing what I know now!). The church of today should be the church of today in the cultural context in which God has chosen for us to live in.

The Viola/Barna project (yes, more books are coming on this topic) have created quite a stir – as did Viola’s previously self-published book on the same topic. One of the best things about this book is the ‘permission’ it has granted many believers to question what we do and why we do it and to see how some of the things we routinely do may have originated and developed over the centuries. I also appreciate how they were clear in pointing out that although something may be pagan (secular) in origin that, in itself, does not make it ‘bad’.
Yes, I have concerns about the church today. I’ve been known to say that the church has failed. I look around – sometimes with horror and disgust – and am appalled at what has been done to the simple message of God in Christ. Sometimes I’m angry. Sometimes I’m sad. Sometimes I look at our latest popular ‘christian’ gurus and their messages and want to distance myself as far as possible from them – claiming them (if at all) as a distant cousin instead of a brother or sister.

Yet in times of dismay I try to remember that the Holy Spirit still indwells the church and is in the process of perfecting her … and will one day present her as a spotless bride to her beloved, Jesus. Currently she may not be the perfect dream that God the Father desires to present to his Son – she has made so many mistakes, has aligned herself with foreign lovers … she’s really messed things up – we’ve really messed things up.

As I was driving through one of our local parks seeking to hear from God I found myself staring at a dirty, muddy pond. I mean it was really dirty – you couldn’t see even an inch below the surface … and it stunk. Within my mind I heard a question: “What do you see?” All I saw was a stinky, dirty pond that you couldn’t pay me enough to wade in. The next thing I heard was “That’s my church.” At first I was discouraged then I was puzzled. The voice continued to explain that there was life in the pond … life I couldn’t see … and he wasn’t done with it yet.

I guess I have to agree with Augustine’s appraisal … “The Church is a whore, but she’s still my mother.” Actually, I’ll take it a little further – she’s also Jesus’ bride. He sees what he’s making her – not just what she currently is.

Just some – ummm – a lot of thoughts …
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